Interview Transcript

Interview Date: 01 June 2020

Interviewer: Dr. Justin D Shanks

Interview Participant: Steve Hicks

 

JS [00:00:01] Um, the first section of of our interview is background, just to learn a little bit about you, learn a little bit about your community. So to start, um, could you just tell us who you are and maybe how you would describe yourself in terms of what is or was your career? And um yeah, just kind of tell us who Steve Hicks is. 

 

SH [00:00:21] Okay. Basically, I got a degree in geology a long time ago. I've worked part time as uh a kind of independent uh geologist since 1981, uh. That and I've also had a co-business at the same time. I do uh solar and wind installations. I'm still doing both of them on uh you know a part time basis. Both jobs have been part time; neither of them are full time work, although I've uh had periods where I'm working, uh you know sometimes I'm off out of state or something uh twelve hours a day, seven days a week on on some mining projects in the past. So uh that's uh that’s most of my my work experience. Uh, let's see. What else can I think of? Very, very persistent on some things. I've got uh some legal experience. You know, essentially, I irritate the government every time and stand up for my rights. And uh over the years, the last uh, I guess, twenty five years, I've had three federal citations, uh. Fortunately, I beat the the federal court two out of the three times; once I had to appeal twice and got all the way to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. And this uh is winning on my own, representing myself. So it take takes a lot of persistence to do that, uh. It's also, uh, you know, being frugal, uh. If you represent yourself, you're not going broke by hiring an attorney. So, uh, okay, married, 73 years old, uh, and been living in White Sulphur Springs now for twenty two years. I like, uh, I like a laid back community. A lot of freedom here. There’s no zoning, uh. It's it’s a conservative community. And that's that’s a pretty quick summary. If you want anything else specific, uh, get the points that you might, you know, might, you know, interest you. 

 

JS [00:02:23] Yeah, definitely. Thanks for that, uh, that little bit of a background and introduction. So, uh, you mentioned you've been living in White Sulphur Springs for a couple of decades, um. That's not where you're from originally then I take it?

 

SH [00:02:38] No, uh, born in Minnesota, grew up in Illinois, and then out in Montana, uh, since, let’s see, nine about 1974. First let’s see in Dillon, then, uh, then Butte two years, then Alaska, and then back to Livingston for 20 years. You know so the last 40 years between Livingston and White Sulphur Springs. 

 

JS [00:03:05] Okay, great, uh so focusing on White Sulphur Springs. How would you, you gave us a little bit of an introduction to White Sulphur Springs, you know, laid back, conservative, uh, no zoning and so forth, but, um, how would you describe White Sulphur Springs in terms of a a community? What's it like living there? Uh, do you find anything challenging, you know, whether your community members? Like, sort of imagine that you know you were speaking with a friend and they're thinking about moving to White Sulphur Springs. How how would you describe, um, what it's like to live in White Sulphur Springs to that person? 

 

SH [00:03:40] Okay, if you're a female, it might not appeal to you too much. There's there's no shopping and the nearest McDonald's is uh you know seventy-five miles away in Livingston. Uh, no chain stores or anything like that. Uh, but you've you've got uh one of the appeals is the is small community. A lot of security. You know, the crime is essentially nonexistent. Uh, and outdoor activities. People uh you know kind of like the outdoor activities. We've we've got a ski resort here just oh 20 miles to the north of us. Uh, a lot of people like uh cross-country skiing, uh hunting, fishing. So it's it's a lot of outdoor activities. Our key feature in town would be the the hot springs. You know, that's that's probably our our biggest attraction. Uh, three three nice, modern swimming pools there with the hotel. So it's, uh, again, a very uh safe community. Uh, again, it’s if it’s a conservative type person. This is this is rural Montana’s a lot different than, uh, you know, you know, the university towns of Bozeman and Missoula. You know, we don't have many uh uh liberals. We're we're not expecting any uh riots downtown anytime soon. Uh, I think there's, I've seen one black person in town, but there's a couple black people here. Uh, so it's an all white community, but that, you know, it's just uh people are friendly, uh. Yeah, that's that's a fairly good summary. Uh, and and you one thing uh for someone moving here, we we do have a good hospital and a nursing home. Uh, but but, a lot of people are concerned. Some of, uh, we’re a retirement community. There's not many jobs here. We're anticipating a copper mine to open up. So there uh should be a couple hundred jobs here in the near future. But uh, we're not a bedroom community; uh, it’s a ranching type community. And uh we're, the average age is older than normal because you if you move here, you you uh may be able to create your own job. You're not likely to find a job and uh you better be sitting on some retirement income. So eh that's kind of a quick global view. Maybe 

 

JS [00:06:11]  Nice.

 

SH [00:06:12] More than you wanted. I don't know. 

 

JS [00:06:13] No, that's that's fantastic. No, I mean, the uh, one of the the goals that uh I'm aiming to accomplish is to understand, right, the people and the places of Montana. So it’s, part of that is how do the people who live in these places understand the places? Uh, so that's exactly uh spot on what I'm I’m hoping for. Uh, and so you you've been in uh you know Livingston and in White Sulphur Springs for about the last forty years back and forth. What uh what brought you to White Sulphur Springs? Why did you decide to to sort of make the move to White Sulphur Springs? 

 

SH [00:06:47] Okay. Good question. Uh, lot of it, well, well the wife partly. Well, both of us. We were getting tired of uh Livingston, uh. Uh, the the government was getting too obtrusive there. I had bought some uh cheap hillside property with a partner. We had fif fifteen city lots right in inside of Livingston we bought in uh late 90s for four thousand dollars— for next to nothing. 

 

JS [00:07:13]  Wow.

 

SH [00:07:14] But it was it was steep. That that sounds like a great buy. You're you're thinking of Bozeman prices. One one lot would cost you maybe forty thousand. Uh, but the deeds, these were real steep. It was right behind the Park County Museum. And uh we could possibly squeeze maybe one one building site on it, on on those and then then we'd have to be building the hillside. It was very steep. They were plotted, but no one had ever lived on it. No streets or allies. But what what irritated us based on the the selling price, uh, the taxes were were non-existent. You know, you know when you have a 4000 dollar property, the taxes aren't much. But then the the city of Livingston started to get in you know their their government was was growing intrusive, and they uh they wanted street and alley maintenance fees and a lighting district. And then the people were dumb enough. They voted that in. And so uh our taxes went up on that property dramatically. Uh, I I was fighting city hall going down to tenant meetings. I said there are no, they're plotted, but there are no streets or allies on our property and uh there are no streetlights. And so they said well everyone everyone has the advantage of the streetlights in town. So they they did tax us a little bit less. Just uh just uh the surrounding uh lots that had access to streets so uh that and another incident. Uh, well now, I guess that was after I left.  I had, they they essentially made a Steve Hicks sewer law. I had, uh, I left my house there and was renting it and uh had to rent a backhoe to fix a uh sewer problem. And I wasn't a licensed contractor. They got bent out of shape. And eh eh essentially they made a new law that uh they had to have a city inspector out on any of these uh sewer repairs. 

Yet, at that time, I was responsible for the the sewer line from my house to the main and the alley. So it just, uh, it got to be a kind of an intrusive government, uh very expensive government there. And the the town was changing. So that is a lot of the reason. And my wife was working uh full time as a nurse at the, you know, the local clinic, and it was getting uh too stressful for her. So she kind of thought, well, Whi White Sulphur Springs, a nice little community. It should be more laid back. So there's there's some some good reasons there for the move. 

 

JS [00:09:50] Sure. Yeah, definitely. So in the in the time you've been in White Sulphur Springs, how has White Sulphur Springs changed, if at all, uh in terms of uh a community? 

 

SH [00:10:01] Another good question. Oh, I'll relay something interesting. I was at the, oh good ten years ago, I was down at the post office and uh the post office clerk uh was talking to people ahead of me. They had moved back. They had uh been away for 20 years or something. You know, a good number years and the the postal clerk asks this couple, oh, ‘How's the place changed?’ ‘Oh, not really.’ And uh, that’s, it’s, I haven't seen many changes over the 20 years. We do have a potential change and some people are maybe a little worried about it. Uh, this proposed copper mine, uh, just 18 miles north of town is gonna bring in about 200 construction workers and uh again, probably at least 150 full time employees once they get mining. So that’s that's going to have a big impact on the town. Uh, it will remain to be seen. I I think the mine is going to be really concerned about who's coming into the community. I I happened to run into the sheriff last week and he said when they've had problems with some of these people, uh contractors in the past, where they they got a little rowdy and were causing trouble, he, the sheriff relayed the the comment uh that there was a problem to the uh the employer here, the Tintina mine, and those people were fired. So they're going to try to be real conscious to keep this community pretty much the way it is, uh, it's not gonna be like, uh, oh, It's a Wonderful Life. If you recall that movie with, uh you know, there was there was two towns, the the rock and roll one, and the that was wide open for gambling and everything, and uh and then the laid back Bedford Falls. But yeah, I don't see it's going to be a dramatic change, so uh, but but up until now, there's been no real change I've seen in 20 years. Everything's pretty much the same. 

 

JS [00:12:09] Okay, great. Well, thank you. Uh, now that we know a little bit about you and we know a little bit about White Sulphur Springs, I'd like to shift to talking about um your practices and decisions regarding information access. Um, so thinking about news or media and other forms of information, um, that's what we want to talk about for the next couple of minutes. So, first and foremost, um how do you currently receive your news or um other types of information? Is it primarily in print or from online sources? Uh, face to face, so on and so forth. So, so where do you get your news from? I guess is the big question. 

 

SH [00:12:47] Okay, uh don't watch as much news as I used to. We used to watch the O'Reilly report and get that, but uh we got tired of that. Then he got thrown off the air. So I I uh I do watch uh three hours of the business channel. It's uh Varney and Company on Fox. But I I I scan through it. I I stop uh on on certain things that interest me. So I I spend, oh, I suppose at least a half hour to forty-five minutes a day in the morning watching that that business channel and fast forward through two thirds of it. I also pick up uh information on, uh, I I look at Drudge Report generally uh daily and and look at a variety of sites there. Uhhh, yeah, another source is uh someone e-mails me uh kind of, yeah kind of like a mini Drudge Report, a lot of different things. It's got a very conservative bent to it and and different articles that that the guy has pulled out. And then, you know, those come to me uh oh two or three times a week. And and I'll browse through those. As far as newspapers, uh, we we get a weekly newspaper here. There is no uh real state news; it’s it’s mostly local. They cover the sports. Uh, and so I'm I'm kind of basically, since I'm getting national news, I'm somewhat uninformed on what's what's going on in Montana. I don't watch uh any of the the TV stations out of Billings or something. Rarely, uh, once a month or so, I might tune into uh a TV if I know something's going on in in Montana, I might check uh you know with one of the Billings stations. Uh, very little, the only time I have the radio on is if I'm traveling. And eh sometimes I'll, uh, if Rush Limbaugh is on, I'll listen to that. Uh, mostly mostly music when I'm traveling. And so, uh yeah, that's that's that's a good good summary. So uh I I guess probably, well, 50/50 between the business channel and the uh the Internet is is most of the source of my news. 

 

JS [00:15:22] Okay, thank you. Yeah. That sounds like a variety of different uh news sources uh currently. So now I want you to think back a little bit uh in in your life and what's your earliest memory of of news media. Uh, maybe when you were uh a child or uh you know an adolescent or a teenager, you know, what's your what's your earliest memory of consuming news media? 

 

SH [00:15:47] Boy, that's a tough question, uh, I have to think about that a little bit. Uh, the first thought comes to mind would be be school. Uh, I was never, I was more of a math and science person. I was never, I'm still not a good reader. Uh, I'm I’m a slow reader. I uh don't don't read. I I read magazines sometimes. Uh, well, this is the exception, I've checked checked out three books, but it's mostly related to research on an ongoing project. Uh, I don't read many books. Uh, so news, uh, I'd say, partly, well, I guess it’d have to been the TV, what my folks were watching. Uh, I'd pick up news and that was I was never a news junkie at all by any means. Uh, and it really wasn't until I got uh in my 40s or so where I was you know politically aware of who my senators or representatives were. Uh, so it was a lot later in life where I got active. And I do congressional inquiries. And I was active that way. But uh when I was 20 years old in college, uh, I had no idea who my uh senators or representatives were. I I I went to school in Illinois, yeah, I just wasn't aware of that. And uh really was not uh aware of what was going on in in my younger years very much. Uh, yeah. That's about the best I can describe it. 

 

JS [00:17:25] Yeah, that's great. So so thinking about watching uh the news on TV, you know, with your parents, as you said, how has your access to news and information changed from from that stage to to now? Um, more access, less access, different types of access? Um, you know, so what’s your, what are your thoughts on that? You know, thinking about watching the the news on television with your parents to now, you know, receiving uh news via the Drudge Report or some of your your weekly newspaper um or you know the email digests that you were talking about. What are your thoughts about how your access has changed over the last, you know, handful of decades? 

 

SH [00:18:08] Just a huge improvement. Uh, instant access via the Internet. Uh, if if I am looking for a certain, I I might see a news item, uh. I I like these uh injustices I see sometimes on on a TV news report, you know, someone was, uh, you know. Well, well okay, I, recent example was uh the gal down in Texas was was jailed for a week for opening her salon. You know, she she essentially told the judge, uh, ya know ya know, ‘I’ve I gotta support my kids.’ And I I followed up on that. I I researched and Googled her name and did a little research there. So the the improvement in in uh the news and and I'll do that fairly often. Research uh a specific thing I'll see and get more information on it, uh, especially uh related to kind of unjust arrest when there there's an injustice. Uh, so the the availability is is just, you know, far superior to to what it used to be. Otherwise, you used to have to go down to the library and uh you’d you'd have to pick out uh different newspapers to get to get that if you wanted or, you know, research something, which which again years ago I did. So uh the the Internet is just is just fabulous as far as wanting to find out things. So the difference is between night and day, I'd say. And I suspect you're seeing similar comments to that uh with other interviews then. 

 

JS [00:19:42] Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's sort of the general tone, but again, it's great to hear, you know, the variety of different stories such as yours right about how has that changed for you on a personal level and, you know, thinking about how it's allowed you maybe to become a little bit more informed or more politically aware, politically active. And just what are, what are the impacts on that increased access to to individuals across the state? So it's yeah, I mean, stories such as yours are are fascinating, right? 

So you mentioned ah, you know how great it is to have seemingly instant access to information over the Internet. Um, do you have, I assume you have Internet access at your home since we're talking via the Internet. But do you have Internet access at home? 

 

SH [00:20:28] Yes, I do, but not always. It was uh when I first got to uh White Sulphur Springs in ‘98, I I lived about, let's see, oh, 300 yards from the library. Uh and so I'd walk over and use the library. And my thought was, uh, my gosh, all the computer problems, you know, that generate are fixed by the taxpayers. And uh and so it was a number of years before we got uh Internet here. I'm thinking, uh, oh, let's see. We moved here in ‘98. It was probably at least uh maybe eight years before we got Internet at home. And uh, now I obviously, you know, been spoiled by it. I gotta fight the convenience. I remember early on when I was using the library Internet and then someone e-mailed me, they they wouldn't get a response from me for a couple days or something. So whereas now generally I'm real good. I check, I check the email and generally two or three times a day or sometimes more if something's going on and I get instant responses back. I just love I just love email. I I prefer that the phone calls. I'm not interrupted by uh a phone call. I can catch the mail at my convenience. It's forcing me into being a better typist, obviously. So, uh yeah long, long answer to a short question. So we've had email or Internet for probably uh 12, 14 years. 

 

JS [00:22:15] Excellent. Uh, so speaking of Internet access, do you own a smartphone? 

 

SH [00:22:23] Uh, yes and no. My wife has one that's uh semi-smart, well, they maybe it’s smart, it's I I don’t know what brand it is. Uh, yeah, I guess you'd call that a smartphone. I'm, me personally, uh oh gosh, it musta been at least 15 years ago uh a guy in his early 80s, he gave me, uh well around 70, he gave me a track phone. He said, Steve, it's past time you get into the 21st century. So I was given my first cell phone as a track phone. I still have that. I finally had, a year ago I had to update update it. They they wouldn't allow me to keep using the original phone. It got obsolete. But uh I uh when I use something, simplicity and reliability is extremely important to me. I don't like, I don't know how to do Word Perfect. I can do Apple works to generate a letter on my Apple computer. I kind of I have trouble with my wife's smartphone. It's getting well, I have to wander around just to pick up a computer, a screen where I can dial a number.  I use her phone for uh making long distance calls cuz they’re uh, it’s unlimited long distance calls. My cell phone, I travel with uh that just for, you know, kind of meeting up with someone when I'm I'm making a trip or something. Or I can check back at home. The the track phone is uh that's all it does, it it uh, you open it up and you can make a phone call. I, I don't even know if I can text with it. So that's the extent of my technology. I want something like like the old days when you when you got a new phone in your house, you didn't have to read an owner's manual for three or four days how to figure out how to use a telephone on the wall. And I've still got, as I mentioned, I've still got a rotary uh dial phone on the kitchen wall. 

 

JS [00:24:23] Right. Right. Yeah. So simplicity and reliability are very, uh very important considerations. Uh, so what about social media? Do you use any sort of social media platforms? 

 

SH [00:24:35] Simple, no. 

 

JS [00:24:38] Can you can you explain uh a little bit why you choose not to use social media? 

 

SH [00:24:44] Yes, I can. Briefly, for a week or two, I think I was on Facebook. Uh, I have one daughter down in Las Vegas. She sent me some some pictures or something or video, and I I essentially had to uh uh get a Facebook account. But it's it's uh more or less a privacy issue more than anything. And it's it’s uh I got better things to do than uh, you know, brag about oh, I made um a trip to you know the the uh the lake and I spent I spent the weekend uh you know fishing or doing this or doing that and posting different pictures. It's just it's just not my my nature. And more than anything, uh I don't want the you know, the the you know the government tracks. Well, I'm not extremely paranoid, but uh no it's a privacy issue, probably more than anything. And it's just it just doesn't appeal to me. I got better things to do with than post all kinds of uh you know stuff on a Facebook or something like that. 

 

JS [00:25:49] Okay, great. Thanks. Uh, so now we've talked about uh information access. I want to shift a little bit to information trustworthiness. Um, I essentially want to chat about how you evaluate, evaluate the information that you access. So when you receive information via the various sources that we talked about earlier, um how do you make sense of it? How do you determine if it's reliable, trustworthy, so on and so forth? So um when you do access things you know the Drudge Report or you get that e-mail digest or you read your weekly uh local newspaper, um how do you determine if the information is reliable or trustworthy, factual um so on and so forth? What sort of process do you go through or uh analysis do you go through for that information? 

 

SH [00:26:34] Boy, that, it's kind of hard to determine these days. There's all these comments about uh fake news out there, and uh I I know generally for a fact like like most of the mainstream news, uh most of those reporters and everything I've seen, uh what I believe is a pretty uh sound survey that, uh you know, I think it's 90, 95 percent of them are are very liberal. And and, you you when when you have that liberal bias with the mainstream uh news, it's it's that bias is going to go into the, you know, into their reporting. Uh, I've I've seen uh articles and I believe that, uh you know, they look at articles on Trump or something. Most of them are negative uh because you have that mainstream bias. Uh, that doesn't mean some of the conservative stuff that I read uh that also can be uh and I've seen where it's it's overtly biased to the the other side. So, uh overall, I'm fairly uh, I'm not that trustworthy of uh the news that I do receive. Uh, let’s see. Yeah, it's it's tough to evaluate it. It's uh I am I'm skeptical of a lot of things. I'm I’m not a the type of person that if if I see one article or something, oh that's the gospel. Uh, you know sometimes I might uh if it if it really interests me, I might try to check a couple other sources and see. A lot of times I look at uh, I'm thinking of uh maybe slightly off the subject, uh YouTube videos. I I look at YouTube videos on solar installations. Uh, I'm obviously you know very experienced in solar installations. You know some of it I can evaluate those. Some are done by idiots. Uh, not literally, well-meaning. You know, they're they're not idiots, but they're uh not experienced. They're showing off their new solar panel they put, but it's in the shade half the day and uh but they're they're proud of what they're doing. But I can evaluate that because I'm very knowledgeable on it. So uh news, I'm I'm skeptical of a lot of the news that I get. Uh, I have, sometimes I I talk to very trusted people and sometimes if they have some firsthand experience, uh I consider that very reliable. So, uh let’s see. Uh, yeah, I'm skeptical of a lot of stuff. I do like uh my business channel. I I think like this Varney and Company, what I've seen there and a lot of the stuff there, I consider it, you know, that's why I watch it. I consider it pretty, pretty credible. But again, I even on that channel, some people, I think are uh, they lose a little credibility. So in summary, I guess I'm a little maybe more cautious than most people uh. Whether it comes from a liberal source or a conservative source uh. So I try to be cautious and and kind of skeptical. 

 

JS [00:29:59] Okay, so just to follow up on something, you said you were talking about articles that you believe or talking about the business channel, you said you found it to be credible most of the time. So I guess, how do you determine the credibility or how do you when you said that you believe what the articles are presenting or how they're explaining something, how do you how do you arrive at those decisions of believability or credibility? 

 

SH [00:30:26] Okay. Kind of like my solar example, when I'm looking at a YouTube and in a in a guys that is first solar panel out and he he knows nothing. It's coming from my experience. I know a lot more than they do. I consider myself probably more business savvy than a lot of people. I'm not comparable to the some of the experts they have on the business channel. But I know enough to uh know fairly evaluate what they're saying. You know, for my first hand experience, oh, yeah yeah, that's true, this is true. Or sometimes on legal matters. I've gained legal experience. I help people with legal stuff every now and then because I've been in the court system a number of times. So I can with, based on my personal experience, I can evaluate some of these people better than than normal. And uh yeah, they do seem credible. I agree with what some of what they're saying. And so that's would be the best way to evaluate credibility. On medical stuff, that's kind of tough, uh when you don't have any real medical experience. My my wife does. But it it's harder to evaluate some of that. And then then when you see these conflicting reports, uh like on the virus. The estimates have been all over the place. A lot of them proven grossly, grossly wrong. So I have a harder time evaluating stuff like that where I have no personal experience. So, yeah, I guess that's the best way I can answer that question. 

 

JS [00:32:04] Okay, great. Yeah. Personal experience that seems like a pretty strong foundation for evaluation. Um so shifting just a little bit, but still talking about trustworthiness and processes of evaluation, so during the previous few years, there's been drawing attention to the concept of post truth uh in the media and in the news. And I'm just wondering if you've heard this phrase and if so, what does the phrase post truth mean to you? 

 

SH [00:32:37] I have not heard the phrase. Uh, I would guess if I were to guess what it might mean as you know, they discover something that's false and they have to after the fact, it was here’s the the the true thing that came out. Am I even correct or am I close? 

 

JS [00:32:58] Oh, yeah, a little bit so post truth um it when it um or at least the way that it's most often uh explained with regard to news and media is focusing less on the factual matters or the, you know, the quote unquote “truth” of the matter and focusing more on emotional appeals. So trying to um get news consumers, information consumers, media viewers to make an emotional appeal to them rather than a factual appeal to them uh when uh conveying information about a particular subject or topic. Um, so definitely, I mean, you're in the zone there, but it's also related to the concept of fake news. Is that and you mentioned this just a couple moments ago that you've heard a little bit uh about that. But what does the phrase fake news mean to you? 

 

SH [00:33:48] Obviously, uh you know, something slanted or totally untrue. Uh and it seems like there's sometimes when I see examples that uh something was proven, you know, this was fake news, what they said originally was totally untrue or extremely slanted. Uh and then there there's lot of times there is not a an apology or a correction made. Uh, I can think of a real good example where I I'm very familiar with. Obama once was bragging about ‘since my administration, there's been more oil drilling and more oil production in the United States.’ Okay. A true statement. But, you know, and I understand some oil, but what he didn't say is is during his administration, he had limited a lot of the oil drilling on on federal lands and offshore. The increased oil production was coming off of private lands. Okay, he told us true statement. There has been increased oil production. But but he, as though he was giving himself credit for it, you know coming off of public lands and what he did, you know uh, contributed to the increased oil production. But now it was all private industry off of uh off of private lands. And so, you know, there's a lot of times, you know, with liars saying about statistics, you can lie with statistics. Obama just you know didn't, it was a perfect example of it uh he didn't lie, but it was slanted. So it's uh I'm sure this goes on all the time. 

 

JS [00:35:32] Yeah. I mean, fake news is certainly one of those things that's received a lot of attention lately uh with respect to journalism and other forms of information uh exchange. Do you think fake news is a widespread problem in journalism and news or a small problem? And if so, where do you see it to be most problematic? 

 

SH [00:35:53] Most problematic would be political, I guess. That's probably where most of the fake news is. Uh, boy, to quantify it, to guess. Oh, you like to think some of these journalists are, you know, oh, all I want is facts. You mentioned the post truth there. I want the factual part of an article. I don't care about the emotional thing and everything. So uh if I were to guess maybe fake news, well boy, I don't know. I'd say it's probably less than uh well, totally fake, I'd say it's maybe it's uh a small percentage. Maybe it's less than 10 percent. As for, as far as biased and slanted, I'm sure that's much more prevalent. Uh, maybe the biased and slanted stuff, uh over uh over a third is biased and slanted. I think an example, even in Livingston, the I was protesting some of the taxes or I think I read a letter to the editor uh concerning those lots I had and they did an interview, but uh uh it was uh the newspaper article kind of protected the city government. And uh I saw that interview was slanted. And then the reporter told me, well, we're not we're not covering this anymore. You know, he was uh he was essentially banned from covering a story like that. So, yeah, totally fake maybe less than 10 percent. Slanted, maybe a good third would be the way I would guess anyway. 

 

JS [00:37:48] Okay. So as you just mentioned, you're a man who wants just the facts presented to to him in the news and and journalism. Have you heard of the phrase alternative facts? 

 

SH [00:38:00] No, I don't recall. Maybe once. Vaguely. But, I no really I'm not aware of that. 

 

JS [00:38:06] Okay. So if you had to speculate a little bit, what do you think alternative facts are? What does that phrase mean to you? If you just kind of have like a maybe a fuzzy understanding, what do you think that understanding is? 

 

SH [00:38:21] Boy, it would be, uh well, maybe the perfect example I had is Obama taking credit for the oil drilling and the increased oil production. An alternative fact would be a portion of that would be the actual fact would be uh oil production is increased on private lands and maybe stayed stable or decreased on public lands. And so that that would be to me uh a maybe an alternative fact uh where where people will pick and choose what they want to uh you know put out there. And and uh they they purposely eliminate uh this this is on court decisions or something. You know, some of these uh court clerks are told uh by the judge you know, uh ‘Susie, I want you to write about that, you know, Jim, uh, Jim Jones is going to win this case.’ And so Susie, as a law clerk, has to pick out the things in the court transcript that uh make make things look better for Jim Jones and and skip the things that there are adverse to him winning the case. So it's it’s kind of a, you know, alternate facts is picking and choosing what what goes along with your your agenda.

 

JS [00:39:43] Okay, that’s great.

 

SH [00:39:24] Not very well said, but uh yeah.

 

JS [00:39:48] Great, thank you. So we're going to shift gears slightly to talk about sharing of information, so uh decisions about what, how and why you share information. So just along those lines, uh what types of information do you share with other people? And how would you share those things? 

 

SH [00:40:07] Okay, generally uh maybe a fourth or fifth verbal or less. A lot of times I'll forward an email or an article to someone and I'll share information that way, you know, by e-mail. So obviously, I don't use Facebook. It would be would be by by e-mail. 

 

JS [00:40:32] Okay and how do you make decisions whether or not to share information with other people? 

 

SH [00:40:37] Okay. Whether if if that information would help this person, uh you know, if they're if they're working on a a case for their, if they're fighting the government or something on a certain issue or something, you know, it might make them a little bit more informed. Sometimes I pass on, like legal tests or or different cases or different things things like that that nature or I pass on information uh uh that maybe that the I know the person would be interested in. Giving an example, I'm I'm I'm on the board of this, it’s called a fully informed jury association. It's actually it's it's been uh 30 years in the making, headquartered in Montana. But they've got national representatives around there basically trying to inform jurors that they can vote their conscience if they're on a jury trial. And and when I see an article like that, I'll I'll pass it on to maybe a fellow board member or executive direct director. So that's the nature. A lot of the stuff, I see a good article I pass it on to someone that I think uh would enjoy reading it and kind of expand their their knowledge of a certain subject. 

 

JS [00:41:56] Okay, so mostly when you share information, if I understand what you're saying correctly, it's from you to one other person, less frequently would be from you to say like a large group of people or to a list serve or something like that. 

 

SH [00:42:11] That's correct. Sometimes if something is really interesting, I might send something, uh I know a number of gun owners. If it’s a real good gun article, I might forward that to three or four ya know people, but but for the most part it’s it’s it’s I'll I'll send something to one or two people. And again, the vast majority is e-mail versus uh phone call or in person. 

 

JS [00:42:36] Okay, great, thank you. Um, so thinking about how information is shared and White Sulphur Springs or in Montana more generally, um do you think information is shared differently in Montana uh than other places? And and if so, why? Or how do you think it is different? Or is it the same? 

 

SH [00:42:58] Oh, I think in the small town uh there, there's a lot of gossip going on and it is shared uh in person, but that's not my nature. I'm kind of out of the loop on a lot of those things going on. I have, I guess here a week ago, oh, interesting story. Um, I invited my neighbors over, another couple over. We had, we got a nice little brewery here and we had beer and pizza. And here I’m these people that they wanted to get out of Bozeman; they retired out of Bozeman. They they came here, they moved up here permanently last last August. And they they finally retired out out of Bozeman. But one of the reasons that because of the brewery. But I found out things. These people have only been here full-time for for about a year. I found out things that I had no idea. And it was interesting, made me laugh. They were even claiming it was it was a part time whorehouse right next door to me and I don't even know what was going on. They had some deadbeat renters in there and evidently this this one gal was uh taking taking it a little extra business, you know, on the side. And I'm not aware of that. So I’m uh I’m. So the answer your question, I guess you know small towns are a lot of uh I think it's ya know a lot of gossip, uh personal interaction. You know, they they they they sit down at the senior center and, you know, oh, did you know who did this, who do that? And there is a lot of I almost joke that there's a lot of people that are inbred in this town and that I'm not in a derogatory sense. But there's a lot of people that are related. They've been here all their life. So that's that would be, to me, a share of that. I'm kind of out of the loop. I don't. Well, I said I didn't know there was a whorehouse next to me, you know, which kind of surprised me, obviously. But so I see that small town, then there's more of that than would be going on in a big town. People seem to know they're their their neighbors business and what's what's going on and who's getting divorced, who died and and things like that. So small town is actually quite a bit different than a larger town in that respect. 

 

JS [00:45:15] Sure, sure. Uh, so shifting gears, thank you for that. Shift shifting gears a little bit, I want to talk about uh information exchange and trustworthiness and sharing in sort of our current era. So obviously, we're as much of the globe if not all of the globe dealing with global public health pandemic. And in early March, Covid-19, the Coronavirus, really took hold in Montana and uh changed some uh daily practices for businesses and individuals and groups and so forth, and really has changed are our individual behaviors on a lot of ways. So I want to talk about your news and information behaviors really since early March up until now and as we're just getting ready to have you know our second phase of reopening across the state. In that, you know, a couple of months these past couple of months, do you find yourself consuming and/or sharing more or less news and information and have your your your news behaviors changed in any way? 

 

SH [00:46:23] Okay, kind of a simple answer. Very little. Almost no change whatsoever. We didn't eat, my wife and I, didn't eat out before very much. So that didn't change. We took a couple of trips into the Costco in Helena. That was, the last time we had to wear a mask. I was there by myself. That was it. That was a minor change. Costco is open for business. Uh, this this community, I I I sat down, you know, there was a few people in the grocery store that would wear a mask every now and they'd look out of place. Uh, I didn't see it. We had one in the whole county. One person tested positive. And then I'd even heard from someone that that that might have been a false positive because the next time they were tested, it was negative. So what what we’ve seen here is entirely different than what you see on TV where everyone's wearing masks everywhere. And uh so as far as information, I uh extremely little change. I've been going about my my normal business, what I've been doing. I've had some out of town trips, I'm dealing with people. Essentially uh close to uh real close to 100 percent. You know, no change whatsoever. 

 

JS [00:47:47] Okay and where do you get your information about Covid-19 or the Coronavirus? 

 

SH [00:47:53] Oh, I started uh, Peak Prosperity. Are you, have you heard of that or aware of that. 

 

JS [00:47:59] Uh I’m not, no. 

 

 

SH [00:48:01] Okay. He was, a lot of hits on his site and initially I was kind of watching it and he was doing a daily update from around the world and showing different different countries, uh real good charting. You know, the guy had a real good uh you know medical background, a PhD type like yourself with with uh real good experience. And I found that kind of fascinating. Uh, he said he was gathering data daily and charting it real good. You know, the number of uh new cases, the number of deaths, uh the percentage of deaths per hundred thousand people. So that that was uh probably my initially until then the novelty of it wore off, that that was a good source of what was going on as far as the virus. 

 

JS [00:49:04] Okay. And could you, uh this is a question that I've been asking everyone, what's your understanding of Covid-19 or the Coronavirus? 

 

SH [00:49:12] Oh, good question. I'll be glad to give you a viewpoint on that. Uh, personally, I I think, I've seen too many articles and uh data that a lot of the deaths are uh contributed to Covid-19 when they shouldn't be. Uh, It sounds like and I again, I, I, I'm still a little skeptical, but supposedly I've I've seen articles again, I don't trust them completely, that there’s incentive for the hospitals to uh if a person has Covid-19 and they're they're in there for a heart attack or they've got cancer and they happen to die. You know, also have Covid-19, they they call that a Covid-19 death. Evidently more reimbursement for the hospital. I did see what I considered a medical type professional on a real good interview uh that that indeed seems to be true, that there was excessive coding to Covid-19. You don't see anything about how many how many flu deaths there are this season. That's that's basically it out of the news. I think it's been personally again, Montana hasn't been impacted at all. I think we're, with Alaska, Wyoming and Montana, we’re we're right at the bottom as far as number of deaths per hundred thousand people. One fortieth or one eightieth of some other, I think New York was maybe 80 people if I recall my figures right, 80 people per hundred thousand. Uh, a number of other states were, you know, 30 and 40 people per one hundred thousand. We were at one. So uh it just I think it's been a lot of scare tactics. I think it's been overblown. I think the government has abused their power. I specifically addressed this by a letter to the editor. Helena wouldn't publish it, our local paper did. I I essentially told, uh, suggested, you know, it's I started out we the people. Okay, I suggested to businesses, open up if you if you want because it’s it's an illegal dictate by uh the governor that you should be closed. I can understand quarantine, you know, some sick people, but the rest of us that aren't sick, we should be free to choose. And my, part of my point was to open. This was slightly maybe two weeks before that uh gal down in Texas made national news when she was thrown in jail. I said, if you're cited, uh ya know simply demand a jury trial and I don't don't think a jury of your peers is going to convict you for trying to feed you know your family by opening up. So overall, I think that the Covid-19 has been blown out of proportion. And it's it's been kind of a power grab by government in many respects. Uh, I think a lot of the Democratically controlled states are opening up slower and the more they can destroy the economy, they hate Trump so much, uh they feel that there is there's a better chance for you know uh Trump to lose his reelection. You know, if the economy is in bad shape, they're going to blame it on Trump. So, yeah, I'm I’m real skeptical of uh yeah and some fairly strong feelings on that Covid-19.

 

JS [00:53:00] Sure yeah, of course, uh so this is, you mentioned a portion of this and some of your just your most recent comments about your understanding of Covid-19 and where you get your Covid-19 information, but how do you determine if the information you're reading or listening to is trustworthy, factual, reliable? You know, going back to some of your earlier comments about believability or credibility, um do use the same process with regard to information about Covid-19 as you do to information about other subjects or is it different? 

 

SH [00:53:35] It it’s still the same, and sometimes I've seen, I've seen uh conflicting reports on that on the Covid-19. You know, some there are saying you know what I just said in a lot of ways that when I’ll I'll bet money on it that, you know, there there's been a lot of coding to Covid-19 deaths that that shouldn't be, obviously. But but I've seen it both ways. And I've got I've got a grandfather clock and an old mantel clock both chiming at the same time here. So I hope we can still we can get through this. 

 

JS [00:54:11] Yeah, of course. Creates a nice ambiance for sure. 

 

SH [00:54:17] Okay. Yes. I'm still like I said, it worries me a little bit when I see conflicting reports. And then you don't really know what to believe. Now, I did mention that Peak Prosperity. That was a lot of numbers generated. And I had no reason for him to really slant the numbers, okay? Oh, and when the numbers were slanted, like like like China was given some unrealistic numbers on their increase to Covid-19, like they were covering it up and everything, and the author would point that out. And he said this this is just unbelievable. Look, look at these other numbers from these other countries. It's growing geometrically and China's is throwing a number out there that's just totally unrealistic. So he's pulling hard data and facts. So I thought that was a pretty good source of information. I considered it credible. Again, he's he's trying to hit, uh you know, numbers and facts and not being real subjective. 

 

JS [00:55:22] Great. Thanks for, thanks for explaining that, that was good detail. It was great to chat with you and if if any questions pop up, you know, don't hesitate to drop me an e-mail. Uh, so thanks so much, Steve. You have a great Monday and we'll be in touch. 

 

SH [00:55:38] Okay, very good. You bet. Enjoyed it.