Interview Transcript

Interview Date: 15 June 2020

Interviewer: Dr. Justin D Shanks

Interview Participant: Hannah Downey

 

JS [00:00:00] Thank you very much again for making time to chat with me today. And to start, what I would like to do is get a little bit of background information. Um who are you? What's your name? Uh what do you do professionally? What do you do in your free time? Um yeah, basically, how would you describe yourself to someone? 

 

HD [00:00:17] Yeah well, I'm Hannah Downey. I am 26 years old. I've been in Bozeman since 2011 when I moved here to go to college. I moved from Minneapolis area um and I graduated in 2015 from Montana State with degrees in political science and econ. Uh so I'm currently working as like the policy director at uh like a environmental think tank group here in Bozeman that actually grew out of the Montana State Econ Department, a group known as Perc. Uh so I I do a lot of work um in the policy space and definitely kind of the intersection of where economic-academia meets, like government policy decision making. Um so outside of that, I am in Bozeman for the same reason that basically everyone's in Bozeman to ski and bike and and the outdoors and all that wonderful stuff. 

 

JS [00:01:14] Great. Thank you uh and so you moved from uh the Twin Cities, originally from the Midwest to Bozeman. Um was that explicitly for university? Or did you have other reasons that drew you here? I mean, aside from the beauty of then outdoors. 

 

HD [00:01:31] Yeah I came for school. I graduated high school and and came out right after that. And obviously had the reasons I chose Montana State to be outdoors and um go to a kind of mid-sized school. But yeah, came for school rather than work or any other thing. 

 

JS [00:01:49] Okay, great. Um so you've had a handful of years uh in the Bozeman uh area and the Gallatin Valley and I'm uh wondering if so if you had a friend who was thinking about moving to Bozeman, how would you describe Bozeman or even the greater Gallatin Valley to them? Uh what's it like to live here? Uh what are the great things about living here? What are the challenging things and uh, if you can, in the time that you've lived here, how have you seen this area change? 

 

HD [00:02:18] Yeah, definitely. Um I guess first way I describe it is definitely it's just like kind of outdoor paradise. Um it's obviously the outdoor recreation and kind of mountain base recreation is it's the biggest lure that I'd share with other people. Um other things that I think I'd emphasize are one that we're you know, we're an outdoor town that isn't just a tourist destination as well. Um, you know, we have a university. There are actual businesses here that are outside of just like the tourism or service industry, which is pretty rare I'd say for a um kind of an outdoor mecca of sorts. Um so that's those are some good things about Bozeman. I guess things that are challenges, I'd say for better or for worse, we're definitely growing significantly. And with that comes increased cost of living. I just bought a house this past year and I can definitely say I came from Edina, which is a pretty upper middle class, more upper class uh suburb of Minneapolis. And it's crazy to compare housing prices and things uh with Bozeman to there and even looking at I remember back in 2011 when I was starting school here, my parents were kind of looking at whether it was worth investing in in a property as a sort of to use as a rental subsequently as I went through college um for me and friends to to rent out and um even just comparing housing prices back in 2011, you know, looking at the same houses and neighborhoods um that now I was looking at when I wanted to buy a house and comparing it to when my parents were looking, you know, not even 10 years ago, uh the changes there have been really significant. So wonderful place live, incredible community, really a really great place to to find a job and put down roots, but it does come with a cost. 

 

JS [00:04:08] Certainly uh well, congratulations uh on purchasing a house that's 

 

HD [00:04:13] Thank you. 

 

JS [00:04:13] quite an accomplishment, very exciting. 

 

HD [00:04:15] Yeah, it's awesome. 

 

JS [00:04:16] Yeah yeah so now that we know a little bit more about Hannah Downey, I'm wondering if we could shift to talking about information accessibility. So um the gist of this section is to try and understand your practices and decisions uh regarding information access. Uh and the first question to start us off here is how do you currently receive your news? 

 

HD [00:04:38] That's a great question. Um I actually rely I get a lot of like daily newsletters. And I also so that I've been in a very interesting intersection where part of my job uh for doing some of this government outreach is to be pretty tuned in to things. So I'm lucky in that my information uh time directly overlaps with with some of my job work there. Um so my a ton of I have a ton of like subscription news services that are available through my job, which is wonderful. So you know, you get daily updates from everything from kind of the big three newspapers like Wall Street Journal, New York Times, to Bozeman Daily Chronicle uh to kind of specific niche subscription letters from Politico Pro or things like that. Um but I'd say in general, one of the sources that I really rely on actually is Twitter um and it's interesting, I was thinking about this the other day, actually, that um Twitter is such an overwhelming amount of information coming at you that I've found the sources that I actually look for and trust on things, it's not like a news outlet itself. It's it's a specific reporter or commentator um that I kind of go to for information on that. For example, you know, someone who has um a beat that's related to criminal justice or things like that right now or the justice system. Um and so those I go way more to a person rather than an outlet has been an interesting kind of realization for me over the past few weeks, especially with I mean if it's Coronavirus and all the civil unrest and and racial systematic things that need to be addressed uh going to a person rather than an outlet has been an interesting observation of mine. 

 

JS [00:06:23] Yeah, certainly. So will the individual that you seek out uh on Twitter, will that vary by the topic area or the subject that you're interested in learning more about? 

 

HD [00:06:34] I'd say definitely. I try and find people who are kind of experts. I so this is kind of thinking back through my evolution of how I get information. I definitely used to go more to um kind of like people who I already agreed with on things, you know, people who um would report kind of on mass news, but with their own bias or take on it. Um and I've found very much more I'm less interested in just having my own kind of beliefs be reaffirmed by people who know as much as I do about a topic, but instead it's much more valuable to find who's an expert on such topic and how can I learn more from them. Um and that's where I think Twitter is really helpful because if you do have like outlets or things that you already follow and you're able to see, okay, here's someone who maybe I trust on, I don't know, topic X, but now they're retweeting someone on topic Y, then that kind of helps channel me to those other experts. So I guess it's like building that web of trust, like, okay, here's someone I trust on this issue and here's someone that they're then trusting on another issue. Um that connection, I think, is helpful. 

 

JS [00:07:53] Yeah, certainly. Uh so with the uh the daily newsletters that you receive, um I assume those are daily newsletters you're receiving via e-mail. Is that?

 

HD [00:08:04] Yup correct. 

 

JS [00:08:04] And then with uh The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Bozeman Daily Chronicle, are you reading those in print form or are you reading those online? 

 

HD [00:08:11] Online. 

 

JS [00:08:14] Okay, um do you get any of your news via print sources like a physical print source? 

 

HD [00:08:19] You know we, personally, I do not. Uh through my workplace, we do we get The Wall Street Journal, Bozeman Daily Chronicle daily um and then we get a few other kind of like more specific topic magazines or like weekly publications as well. And so those are always out in the office so I'll scan those, um but for the most part, it's online (phone rings).

 

JS [00:08:54] You need to take that? 

 

HD [00:08:54] No we're good, sorry. 

 

JS [00:08:54] Okay um and what about uh oral news? Do you uh do you get any of your news face to face or via the phone or, you know, in speaking with other people? 

 

HD [00:09:05] Um a decent amount, but more in form of I wouldn't say there's like specific people that I like go to for the news face to face. It'd be more like a topic of conversation about a headline we've seen or about something that an article someone's read. Um so yeah that's I'd say that's more like conversational than news-gathering. 

 

JS [00:09:26] Okay and would those people that you're having uh conversations, sort of topic oriented conversations with would those people at work or socially or just people you bump into, acquaintances you bump into uh on the street? Or does it does it vary? 

 

HD [00:09:43] Uh, you know, I kind of say a little bit of all of the above. Um yeah, definitely in my workplace. Tons of that. Um definitely amongst like good friends and family for sure. Um I'd say like fewer casual acquaintances, but, um yeah definitely so definitely like the people that I'm in contact with on a regular basis. 

 

JS [00:10:07] Great. Thank you. Uh so now having a sense of where you currently get your news, I want to ask you to think back as far as you can uh and try to recollect your earliest memory of receiving the news. Um and if you can recall a specific uh news segment or news topic and um sort of set the stage, paint the picture of what that was like. 

 

HD [00:10:31] Yeah, I'd say so I'm one of like the people where I was in elementary school when 9/11 happened. Um so that was like significantly stuck in my mind of, you know, like the first time that I actually kind of paid attention to the news, I think I was in probably I think it was like third grade then maybe even younger, I can't remember off the top of my head. Um so that was like in terms of an event that really, like, jarred me. And I remember actually like watching a newscast on um that was a big one. Other than that, my parents growing up, we always got, being in Minneapolis, we always got the Minneapolis Star Tribune was delivered daily. And so kind of my morning routine through middle school and high school was like eat a bowl of cereal, I'd usually read the comics and then, like, skim through the headlines. So that kind of just became a day-to-day routine. 

 

JS [00:11:21] Sure, that uh those are two very, very different, but very distinct memories. 

 

HD [00:11:27] Yeah. 

 

JS [00:11:28] Um so with the so you were uh physically in school when when 9/11 occurred, right? I mean, given the time of the day you were in the classroom. 

 

HD [00:11:37] Yeah. And so I went to I went to a really actually when I was in elementary school, I lived in Madison, Wisconsin, and went to a really small Catholic elementary school and so we didn't I don't think we heard about it during the day, but it was instead, you know, I lived about a mile from from the school. And so my mom would walk over, pick us up and walk us back home, my siblings and I um and I remember her telling us about it on the walk home. So I'd like heard about it, not from from the news, but then as soon as we got home. Yeah like I believe actually like some of the neighbors I lived in on a on a street where all the neighbors were very, very good friends and pretty close. And I believe one of the neighbors even like pulled out a TV onto the porch and like the neighborhood watched um just news reports of what was happening. 

 

JS [00:12:26] Wow. Uh yeah, definitely a very memorable piece of your childhood. So now, thinking about the newspapers and, you know, a more lighthearted topic. Um uh so you read the comics, skim some other news. Was that a practice that you picked up uh from one of your one of your parents, or is that just something that the newspaper was provided for you and you just sort of figured it out on your own or?

 

HD [00:12:55] That's a good question. Um I'd say so my parents were always very like aware of current events and pretty involved in things within the community and kind of statewide and family wide and um all those good things. And so they were always very up to date on the news. And thinking back, I don't know if I ever, like distinctly remember them sitting down and reading the paper, but they always seem to like know what was in the paper. So they must have done it at some point in time, whether it was before I was awake or not. Um but I think that was always just you know, the paper was always on the kitchen table when you walked in in the morning. Um so, yeah, I don't know if it was like habit or observation or wanting to keep up with what my parents were talking about. But it was just kind of it's just kind of like an atmosphere of being aware of what was happening in the news and so by default um I think that just kind of happened. 

 

JS [00:13:52] So now, if you could think from your time of, you know, learning about um 9/11 while you're on your walk home and the television on one of your neighbors porches and sort of a neighborhood community type of access to that uh bit of news information, as well as your practices of, you know, reading the comics, skimming the newspaper when you're a bit older. Think from those uh experiences to now where you're getting a lot of daily uh news digest, news newsletters, subscriptions, you you're reading major newspapers online. Um you may be skimming through some print uh magazines or newspapers. How has your access to news and news information changed, you know, from third grade Hannah to present day Hannah? 

 

HD [00:14:37] Oh, man. I mean, I would just say, like, you're inundated with news now. It's it's incredible. I mean, even when you go on Facebook, you go on Instagram, you turn on the radio, you see a billboard, you are talking with friends. You see signs in the grocery store, like there is just so much around you. Um and I guess, again, not wanting to keep this totally Coronavirus centric, but I mean, it's been especially pronounced over the past few months. And also so complicated because it seems like whatever channel you turn on or who you listen to or what store you're at or whatever you're hearing, different information, um which I guess brings up the interesting point of like information versus a news media source as well. Um so, yeah, all this to say, I just think there's it's there's so much out there now that it's like kind of impossible to not know what's happening. Like, even this past weekend, I was down at my parents cabin um outside of Red Lodge and we don't really have cell service. And I was up like skiing and hiking and not, you know, not on my phone. And it was really kind of bizarre to come back this morning and actually, like, check my email and go on to things. And it made me realize, like, wow, it was I'm just like constantly inundated with these sources of information where it really kind of required me being off the grid a little bit to escape it. Like I had no clue I was like I don't know. I could come back on Monday morning and check my emails and suddenly find out like Montana went back into lockdown or I don't know. But it's just it's kind of wild how much we assume for it to be there at the snap of a finger um and how much you feel like you can miss in the course of like twenty four hours being disconnected. 

 

JS [00:16:33] Yeah, certainly. So I want to follow up. You just uh you made I think an insightful distinction between information and news. And you also added media in there. And I was wondering if you could sort of parse that a little bit. How do you what do those different terms mean to you? Or uh yeah, just uh I'll give you some space to explain that a little bit more. 

 

HD [00:16:54] Yeah. Well, I think part of that comes um like with my job where I'm kind of tasked with disseminating information like from a very academic background um or, you know, the researchers are very much like kind of economists, whatever, and uh and trying to translate what some of that means to an everyday person. And so I've just seen kind of through experience and even in like doing interviews or pitching pieces, or sending statements to press, things like that um kind of there's the distinction between the information that actually came from kind of the research and the background there to then what little sound bites and pieces you're getting from the media. And again, I think there's a distinction here between, you know, are you getting. Are you getting media or are you are you getting information from does the media account as like a really in-depth exposé? Or is it a few hundred word um piece that just needed to get out on time with an update of what's happening? Uh so I think there's there's a a key distinction there to understand just just how much and I don't want to like bash on the media in any sense, but in a way of saying, like how much in-depth background research and like how much nuance you're actually able to tease out in some of these things. Um so there's yeah. So there's there's those pieces. So I guess there's like actual the kind of research side of things, and then there's the media where they're the outlet they're they're supposed to be the connector between that research and the everyday person. And sometimes in that translation, pieces get lost or like nuance gets lost. Um but then even beyond that, I think there's also the information and I see it so often where it's like, well, what the what an individual observes versus kind of like, what's net truth, I guess. Um you know, it's so easy to say, well like this was my experience so this is how it must be for everyone or this is what I saw and so that's that's my information that I'm sharing with you. But that's your experience rather than like kind of actual research that's done that's able to get a broader grasp on an issue. And I think all those pieces are honestly like quite important. You can't underscore the value of um of any of those pieces, but you do need to be conscious of of what you're seeing and what you're hearing and how it kind of all couples together. 

 

JS [00:19:27] Thank you for that. We're going to circle back to some of those points in just a moment, but before we get there, um you mentioned you were in Red Lodge uh over the weekend and didn't have a lot of access to news information. Uh you know suffer cell service, etc., um where you currently live in Bozeman, how's your Internet access there? Is it slow, is it fast? Reliable, unreliable?

 

HD [00:19:51] We're reliable, excellent, great phone service. All that I would say, yeah. At the push of a button, you get all the all the information you could want. 

 

JS [00:20:01] Yes, exactly. That was my follow up question. Um and do you access uh any of these news sources uh on your phone or is this mostly on a computer or a little bit of both? 

 

HD [00:20:13] A little bit of both? Yeah, yeah. I'd say definitely for like quick news and quick headlines, uh phone, you know, quick scrolling Twitter or um, you know, looking something up. Um seeing I'd say phone is much more like social media news um versus on a computer, I'm very much more like, okay, actually getting, you know, my my morning E version of the newspaper or whatever. And then I click through to whatever articles I want to read. So that's where I do more of a thorough read.

 

JS [00:20:47] So the quicker sort of snippets from social media on the phone and a little bit more in-depth or long form on the computer?

 

HD [00:20:54] Yup. yup. 

 

JS [00:20:56] Okay and what uh what social media platforms do you find yourself using? 

 

HD [00:21:01] Um mostly Instagram and Twitter. 

 

JS [00:21:05] And what about the different forms of news or information that you get from those two sources? Do you find any differences, any similarities between uh what you're getting from those? 

 

HD [00:21:19] Ooo that's that's a great question. I definitely I definitely think yes. I'm trying to think of, like, how to best phrase the observed differences. I think well, and maybe it's that I use them both differently as well. So Twitter, I think if I didn't have my job, I probably would not be as keen on Twitter um and so I think I've definitely kind of cultivated Twitter as more of a kind of more of a professional space um versus Instagram, I've kind of cultivated it more as like a personal and like self interest space. You know, it's much more like Twitter is a lot of a lot of politicians a lot of like uh kind of more policy related news, things like that, versus Instagram as friends, family, outdoor brands, that sort of stuff. And definitely, you know, there gets if an issue comes up, you're going to hear about it on both of those platforms. But the way I've kind of cultivated those those uh social media communities, I think handles it differently. Um so, for example, I'm thinking of recently the George Floyd protests um, for example, you know, on on Instagram, it's a lot more kind of personal um like personal calls to action or personal like here's what you can do as an individual um vs. my Twitter feed was a lot more, you know, here are here's like some cover, you know, here's pictures or videos or things of what's happening. But also here are um legal experts exploring what is qualified immunity. So it's just different um different levels of calls to action, I suppose. 

 

JS [00:23:07] Nice, yeah, I think that's a good distinction between the uh the social media communities and the different types of information, which largely I think varies with the types of communities that you cultivate on those platforms. 

 

HD [00:23:19] Yeah, yeah that's I I think you can I mean, I think I could have cultivated those each differently and probably gotten different takes of information off of them, but that's kind of how I've separated them out. 

 

JS [00:23:30] Sure, sure. That makes complete sense. Um so now we we have a sense of where you're getting your news, where are you getting information, uh I'd like to chat about how you evaluate that information. So um when you get a piece of information via Instagram or Twitter or you read something in The Wall Street Journal or in one of your your daily uh newsletters, how do you determine if that information is trustworthy, reliable, factual? Um how do how do you go through that process? 

 

HD [00:24:00] Yeah, well, I think so something that uh is maybe a fault or or the wonderful thing of kind of being an econ student and actually with an interest in statistics is that I really don't trust stats used in media sources all that much. And just and not from a point of that I don't that I'm like, oh, that information is inaccurate. But I just realize that there are so many ways you can cut data or present data so that you kind of get a different sense of things, for example, right, let's let's look at Coronavirus, which is, I think, the where you're seeing the same information presented in a hundred different ways daily, right. It's are case counts rising, are percentage positives rising? Are hospitalizations compared to like death rate per 1000 people, whatever way you try and, you know, are you looking at trends or are you looking at daily increases? Are you looking at seven day smoothed averages? Like depending on some of the ways that you shape that data, you're going to kind of tell a different story or whatever you lead with is going to create a different emotion, you know? For example, I'm thinking of two articles I saw where one was, you know, like 'Gallatin County continues to see increasing Coronavirus cases' and another headlines like 'Gallatin County has has had zero hospitalizations for the past month or so.' And like here, we're looking at the same set of humans right, but the message that you're sending me and which part of that statistic you're using as your headline differs. Um so I really enjoy, I guess, one of the things I value in um or that kind of lends me to believe that a reporter or media source is is truly trying to just disseminate information rather than opinion is are they willing to show like the different ways a statistic can be presented um rather than just saying, 'like, here's my take on it. So here's the statistic I'm going to use.' They're instead saying, you know, 'well, here's maybe here's the number of deaths. Here's the number of hospitalizations over time. Here's number of percentage positive cases,' for example. Um so that's something that I really I really value in a media source um as well as looking at are they willing to get quotes or statements from from different viewpoints. I think that shows that a reporter is willing to actually um do some work and understand that there are multiple sides to an issue um and be willing to dove into some of that. So I guess those are two important things to me. Are you willing to, like, look at statistics beyond just like trying to rabble-rouse with them? Uh and also, are you willing to to throw out, like, maybe a dissenting opinion? 

 

JS [00:26:52] Right. So speaking of statistics for uh rabble-rousing, um over the last few years, there's been a lot of attention to concepts uh known as post truth and alternative facts and fake news. And I'm just wondering if you've heard of any of those uh phrases and if you have, uh what do they mean to you?

 

HD [00:27:14] Oh, yeah. Um working in policy fake news is quite the term these days. Um I mean, I think it's difficult, right, when there's I'd say there's definitely instances where certain, like reporters or media outlets or whatever, are again trying to kind of skew things for an angle while trying to present it as very factual. I think that's one of the difficulties with everyone who can have a blog, can be a news source, right, depending on how you take it. And so um so, yeah, I mean, you see everything from I don't know, I'm thinking of like you see everything from The Daily Caller to Grist to anything in between, and it's to someone's personal Montana policy blog. And it can all be considered some sort of news. And so I definitely disapprove of like the concept of like that the media is just out there to get people. I think that the broader concept of fake news is is not true. Like, for the most part, reporters are truly and genuinely trying to do their job and disseminate information and keep people um like keep people informed and able to make decisions. That being said, there are definitely things where, you know, true nuance can't get crammed into 800 words or this blog post is choosing to kind of have their opinion or maybe shut down a dissenting voice. Um so in that sense, I mean, that's where I think any piece of news or if you only use one media source, whatever that is, it could be considered fake news because there's gonna be instances, or I shouldn't say it could be considered fake news, but there could be instances where you're saying I'm not getting the whole all of the parts to the story. Um the difficulty there, I think, is, again, you're being inundated with so much news so fast that it's so difficult to actually say I'm going to carve out a half an hour and maybe read um a few different takes on the same issue. I want to read, you know, a local story on this. I want to read um, you know, maybe some wonky policy blog on this. And I want to read the Wall Street Journal's take on it. People just don't have that time or interest. I'm very lucky in that for my job I'm able to do that. So um I think being consciously taking the time to to read about the same story from a few different news sources um has really enlightened me to see or not enlightened me, but like enabled me to see some of the differences um in how those different vantage points of reporting can can tell the same story in slightly different ways. So, yeah, sorry that was kind of along answer, but all to say, I think there's a difference between, like, incomplete news and fake news. 

 

JS [00:30:15] Yes. And um could you elaborate on that a little bit? You did a bit earlier, but so what so to to make the question more specific, so if you have incomplete news and you have fake news, um do you think they're both equally problematic in all spheres of news and journalism? Or do you think one is more purposely cultivated? And one is sort of uh just a consequence of circumstance?

 

HD [00:30:42] Oh, I probably agree there is a difference between them. I think there's um I mean, heck, even you read like I'm going to use, like Fox News as an example um or even like talk radio to some extent on both sides of the aisle. Um you're getting people who are telling you specifically from a viewpoint to try and further an agenda or further um kind of like a mental framing of how the world works and that I don't know if I go so far as to, again, say that's fake news, but I feel like that's like purposely deceptive a little bit. And that um I don't think that's the role of the media. That's more the role of like I guess there's a difference between, like a thought leader and a news source as well. Um are you trying to shape people's minds or are you trying to inform them? Um and I think we're so prone to call everything a news source when really some of those things are actually thought leaders or like influencers. Um so I would say kind of my take on maybe fake news would be where you're purposely trying to mislead someone for the sake of shaping their broader opinion on politics or the world or an issue um versus there's just a lot of instances where, again, you can't you can't fit all of the details into into a 24 hour deadline or, you know, a six hour deadline um and an 800 word count space, if even 800. So, yeah, I think there's a difference there. And it's intent, which is, again, really difficult to measure. Um yeah, so I don't totally know where that ends up, but I think that requires some personal judgment and again, looking at multiple sources on the same topic. 

 

JS [00:32:35] And do you as a consumer of news, both professionally and also uh as an individual, do you think you have a pretty good sense uh or a pretty good um system in place to determine what's incomplete news versus what's fake news? Do you feel well equipped to make that uh that distinction? 

 

HD [00:32:54] You know, I hope so. I think so. Um part of it depends on is the issue something that I am personally interested enough in to really try and take the time to to get some of those different voices and get some of that different information and actually like dig into the information beyond just um a specific article. Um other instances, I'm okay enough to say, like, 'cool. I skimmed that article. I kind of know what happened. I'm not digging into it deeper.'

 

JS [00:33:28] Excellent. Thank you very much. Uh so now uh I want to shift to talk about sharing of information. So you read something um in of your various news sources. Um what do you what do you do with that? Do you find yourself sharing information with others? If so, what types of information do you typically find yourself sharing? Then how do you make a determination of whether or not something should be shared with other people? 

 

HD [00:33:56] Yeah, that's a great question. I guess probably one of the biggest questions is like, how do I share it? And that is like different. I'd say probably the biggest way that I share news or information is through just like personal conversation. I love like actually using news to kind of spark debate or conversation or like take it from news to personal. I don't know, what does it mean personally? Um so that's probably my favorite way. And again, I use I use platforms very differently. I'd say Twitter. I'm way more prone to like re tweet something or whether that's um, you know, like an opinion piece that I think is great or whether it's um some piece of news that I think more people should just be aware of. Um otherwise, I don't know. I don't really I'm trying to think back. I think in all of my so I've had Facebook since like high school and I think I've probably shared like two articles on Facebook ever. And they were just like incredible opinion pieces that I had read on just like issues that I think I really dislike when issues become um kind of so catch phrasey without any further discussion or thought into like what's actually behind the issues. So there was one that was um it was back when like Cecil the Lion was killed and um and like it was, you know, clearly legal, whatever, but it sparked all this just like outrage. And for part of my job, I look at a lot of like, how does conservation actually get funded on the ground in a lot of these areas, um especially in like impoverished communities in Africa and some of the roles that hunting plays in actually like conserving habitat. And again, I appreciate that it's very controversial, but it was one of the where this there's incredible op ed was written in The New York Times by a young man who is a doctor um in the United States now, but he was originally raised, I believe, in Kenya, some sub-Saharan African country. Um and he wrote just the most incredible op-ed trying to provide some context like this is what it looked like on the ground for me growing up. Um and this is why kind of these just like blanket calls to be like, oh, this poor lion, we got to like, people are evil if they hunt a lion and he's able to go in and provide all of this context and like um kind of speak speak to what he experienced on the ground. So that was one of the things that I shared on Facebook. And I and I still am like, well, it's kind of weird that I did that because normally I try and again maybe use that as a personal area where I'm like, this is not my job at this point in time. I don't need to get in fights with people over Facebook where they just want to leave a comment and and not actually think about it or like not listen or have a conversation; it's just throwing daggers. Um but it was one that I just felt so so importantly that like this this conversation's becoming so one sided and I think it's really important for people to consider um some of the present reality for the people who are actually impacted by these decisions or who these decisions directly influence on the ground what happens. Uh so, yeah, that's it. So I guess that's kind of an interesting thought process for me to even go through of how do I decide these things. And again I try to keep it more personal because we're so inundated with headlines and people just use keyboards to to make a quick point and not actually think deeply about things. I so value the human to human element where you may be able to say, you know, I agree with you on a desired outcome. Here's where I differ with you on the approach and that that does not come across um through a screen. But there are certain things, where it's like, hey, I just think people should should consider this. And I try to limit it enough to a point where it's not overload and that people just kind of skim through it and don't think about it. It's like, 'oh hey, she she doesn't usually do this. It must be something important enough to her that she wants the, you know, her her friends or whatever to see this.' 

 

JS [00:38:13] Yeah, certainly. So you just use the phrase inundated with headlines uh and earlier you talked about how we were inundated with information. And I'm wondering, do you think the majority of people, and this is speculative I certainly understand the nature of this question. Um do you think people generally are more inundated with information or more inundated with headlines? 

 

HD [00:38:36] Whew, that's a great question. Um I probably honestly say like headlines and maybe even more inundated with opinions, you know, everyone it's very people are very quick to like post their opinion on something or share an article that um share an article, but then they'll leave their little like one sentence take on it. Um and so maybe that's it. Maybe maybe it's more headlines. And I guess headlines do have some information in them. If it's a good headline, it hopefully at least tells you what kind of the meat of the article is. Um but yeah so I guess probably headlines if I had to choose. 

 

JS [00:39:23] Yeah, I realize it's that's a bit of a Sophie's Choice, but um it's uh 

 

HD [00:39:28] Yeah, sorry maybe I'm thinking too deeply into all of these things. 

 

JS [00:39:31] No, no, no. I think that's I think that's a very good distinction um and certainly an important difference between having information and having a headline or an opinion. Um so you've lived uh in Bozeman for a few years, before that you were in the Twin Cities and Madison prior to that so you've had experience living in a handful places in the country. And I'm wondering, based upon your experiences in Montana and in the Midwest, do you think people in Montana share information differently than than people in other parts of the country? Uh if so, how? If not, do you think we all sort of have the same information sharing behaviors? 

 

HD [00:40:12] That's a good question. And I'd probably say Bozeman is unique compared to Montana in terms of the sense of like we just do have availability of cell phone service, um Internet service. You come way more into contact with people on day to day than maybe in like more remote rural Montana. The one thing that I I would say is is pretty common um both in my experience in talking with like friends and family who kind of live all over the globe, is that you listen to information from sources you trust. And what makes that trust is very different. Whether like for me, kind of coming from a more academics kind of background or, you know what makes something peer reviewable or whatever, um like that is different than maybe, you know, my parents where a news source or or friends or whatever side of the aisle or wherever you're coming from, you kind of want your thoughts to be reaffirmed or kind of like your inclinations on the world to be reaffirmed through your news. I think it's um when people think about it, they try and read different takes on things, but 

 

JS [00:41:23] So uh you were just chatting a little bit about uh differences between Bozeman and the rest of Montana in terms of technology and infrastructure and person to person contact. And then uh you were chatting a little bit about how uh individuals seem to listen to information from sources that they trust and trust being sort of determined by um a reaffirmation of beliefs or thoughts or perspectives. And then we lost you. So I'm going to try to pick that thought up, that be great? 

 

HD [00:41:56] Yeah. Yeah. I guess just with with some of that, it's um it's a little bit interesting, maybe, as I mentioned, how people like listen to sources they trust and maybe kind of reaffirm some of their existing thoughts on things. Um but it's I guess, one of the things I've maybe observed is a difference in trust at like a local level versus a more national level. Um, you know, for example, I think in Montana there's way, even outside of Bozeman and again, this is largely perception and based on just my own personal experiences um, but you know, there's a lot of trust in like the local paper or in, you know, like the local whatever Montana talk radio show you listen to. Um and and that Montana seems to have like a much more kind of local level of trust um versus maybe some of the other places I've lived. There's a little more trust than say like a bigger national paper, such as The New York Times or Wall Street Journal. And I don't know if some of that um like perceived prestige with those sources or um, you know, at the Montana level, is it much more because you feel like you know or you you know the people that are writing the paper because they're your neighbors or you see them at church on Sunday. Um I don't totally know why that might be, but that's that's something that I've seem to have observed. 

 

JS [00:43:31] Right. Yeah I think that's that's a very keen observation. Uh so thanks for explaining that. Uh so now I want to shift uh gears a little bit and talk about um very contemporary experiences and specifically looking at Covid-19 or Coronavirus. Um and this is obviously been a very important topic around the globe for a number of months. Um and really became quite uh pressing in Montana in the early part of March uh when we started to see our first cases. And then very quickly thereafter came a an order from the governor's office or a number of orders from the governor's office that changed the way individuals moved around, changed professional behaviors, uh closed some businesses, closed some schools, etc., etc. So uh I'm wondering, in the uh, you know, since early March up until now, where we've just entered into the second phase of reopening and things are maybe sort of trickling back toward quasi normal operation. Uh do you find yourself in that time period, in these past few months, consuming and sharing more or less information? 

 

HD [00:44:44] Oh, that's a great question. Um I would definitely say more. Um part of that is because I'm actually getting married in this next week, um which is awesome, but it has meant, you know, trying to to plan a wedding and all that. I've just felt far more um responsible for being on top of what's actually happening related to Coronavirus. So um not only kind of policies and procedures that states and um and like different countries are putting on people because of because of the virus, um but also just for a sense of trying to understand some of the science behind it. I'm not a scientist at all, um but I suddenly found myself, you know, spending a lot of time looking at things like how is this transmitted? What do you have to do? Like, who is most at risk? Those sorts of things. Um and I think that's something I would have maybe I would have been reasonably interested in in any other circumstance, but especially given that I'm getting married this summer um and trying to figure out what to do regarding that event was was pretty hyper aware and hyper consuming news on that topic. 

 

JS [00:45:57] Yeah, that's certainly understandable. Well, first, congratulations uh on your upcoming wedding. 

 

HD [00:46:01] Thank you. 

 

JS [00:46:02] I hope everything goes very smoothly for you and your guests. And since you are, since you are uh hyper aware of of what's going on with the world of Covid-19, and, you know, both locally as well as it sounds internationally. I'm wondering, where have you been getting your information about uh Covid-19? 

 

HD [00:46:25] Oh, that's that's a good question. Um so I guess at a state level, um one big source has been like through Twitter, following the specific reporters that are following or that are kind of like reporting on Montana stuff. Holly Michaels has been awesome in keeping people up to date. Um in addition to that, checking not only like the Gallatin County Health page, but also that the page that Governor Bullock and State set up um just kind of with press releases, news, um that sort of stuff. So that's kind of been my my source mostly for keeping up with um kind of like policies and governance related to the virus. Um beyond that um again trying to find on on Twitter a few folks who are kind of more medical experts looking at at the issue. Um so that ranges from, you know, former heads of um like world health organizations and CDC and folks who've worked um at a federal government level on on infectious diseases and epidemiology. Um beyond so I guess kind of beyond those individual people using a lot of like John at Johns Hopkins Resources. Um I was following that University of Washington like IHME model for a while. And then that became clear that that just was not accurate at all. Or to to very many degrees not accurate uh so kind of stopped that. Uh, but yeah, The New York Times and like Wall Street Journal had some some really good kind of nation wide information. But Montana was so unique in in like a lot of not only our response, but also kind of how heavily we were impacted so I did try and rely on things like Bozeman Daily Chronicle, um Holly Michaels and other kind of local reporters and local officials for for the more local news. 

 

JS [00:48:28] Definitely. That sounds like a nice, diverse assortment of sources. And uh same as the question just a little while ago, how do you determine if the information that you're getting about Covid-19 is trust trustworthy, factual, reliable? 

 

HD [00:48:43] That's a great question. And honestly, I am still not sure. It just seems like um, you know, you have the take, for example, how like World Health Organization the other day had this statement about how um it's like spread among asymptomatic people is rare. And then immediately, you know, they kind of were like 'well that's not totally what we meant,' and then there were news headline saying, you know, spread among asymptomatic people very rare, says WHO. But then WHO's coming back and kind of clarifying that they didn't totally mean that. Then there's other epidemiologists uh writing in and appearing on radio shows and things saying that's not actually true. So um yeah, in all honesty, it's very difficult to know um with Coronavirus what is actually accurate or not um at least in a forward-looking perspective. Um I think, you know, basic data that you can find, for example, how like Montana and uh Gallatin County both have kind of their dashboards where they update every day how many new cases there are, how many tests they ran. So looking at at those numbers and being able to kind of look at a fuller dataset rather than what we were previously talking about with just kind of pulling one statistic or like one cut of that data, um that that's been helpful. But that's when we really look at okay, well, here's what we know and here are like numbers that are coming back from a lab. Uh but in terms of forward-looking, I still don't know who to trust on that. And I don't think it's necessarily that I don't trust them. It's just that I think we're so and in so much of this that it's very difficult to kind of weed out over time what has proven to be long-term true. 

 

JS [00:50:33] Yes, certainly the ongoing nature and being right in the midst of a developing public health uh pandemic certainly makes it uh challenging and I'm wondering 

 

HD [00:50:44] Definitely. 

 

JS [00:50:45] Yeah, I'm wondering since since you have been reading a lot and listening to a lot and obviously you have a very personal stake in understanding Covid-19, I'm wondering if you could just explain explain your understanding of Covid-19. What what is it? What does it mean to you? How do you understand it? 

 

HD [00:51:02] Yeah, um that's that's a great question. Uh kind of the basics of it that I understand that it's um a respiratory virus that is able to transfer from human to human, largely through um, you know, one person share shedding the virus largely through like coughing or sneezing or things like that. Um in terms of the actual kind of scientific, what does it do to you? How does it work? Um I can't claim to understand too much of how the virus actually attacks your body, um but in terms of knowing like here are your symptoms, uh some people are really mild, maybe have nothing. Other people, it's it's terrible and you have to go on a ventilator and you can't breathe and you can't do anything and it hits. Um there's been so much conversation about like is this just another flu or not? Uh my understanding is that it's significantly worse than just another flu. Um, but that being said, you know, there are underlying conditions that do kind of compound and react with the effects of Coronavirus. And so things things become much worse then. So um yeah, respiratory, attacks kind of your ability to breathe, ability to do things, can have to go on uh ventilators or need assistance breathing and that it's highly infectious. We don't have a vaccine. We ultimately don't know that much about it. 

 

JS [00:52:32] Excellent. Thank you for sharing that. Um so we've reached the end of our question set and I just have one last so very open ended um space for you to fill in if you so choose. And that's um has there been anything that you thought we were going to talk about that we didn't talk about or anything specifically that you want to add or anything you want to ask ask me at this point? 

 

HD [00:52:57] No, I don't think so. I really appreciate that you're doing this um because I think I've been amidst all of this Coronavirus stuff, especially been really kind of reconsidering how I get my news and what sources I look at. So I really appreciate that you're doing this. Um that being said, I do just I know we've talked about this, but you just kind of want to emphasize that I'm really lucky in that for part of my job does involve staying pretty up to date on what's what's happening in the world, largely with um a policy focus. So that is really wonderful for me because it allows me more time and in a professional capacity to actually be able to look at these different sources, to be able to read those newsletters every day, to be able to say, 'oh, this is an interesting story. I should look up what, you know, another outlet has to say about this or another journalist has to say about it.' Um so I appreciate that in a lot of this, I'm I'm probably not the norm, um but I guess that's your job to figure out do how do more people get their ideas and figure out am I really an outlier or are there tons of other people like me? But just want to make that really clear that I appreciate very much that through my professional capacity, I have the time and um, you know, even just subscriptions to news sources. I would not be paying for as many as much access to to full articles as I do now if it weren't for my job. 

 

JS [00:54:26] Yeah, I think that's that's a very important uh aspect to highlight. And um I want to thank you for uh taking time to chat with me today. And uh I really appreciate your your openness and your thoughtfulness uh in in responding to my questions. And uh it's been a great pleasure to chat with you um today, Hannah, and so so thank you very much. 

 

HD [00:54:50] Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, I look forward to seeing whatever comes of it. Best of luck.